January 28th, 2008

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Morocco, Science, Travel
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Why Are So Many Italian Men Such Chotches? Is It Evolution?

When walking alone through the medina here in Essaouira, Julie occasionally gets unwanted male attention. It’s low-key and harmless, and comes with the territory. It’s not nearly as bad as she’s experienced in Italy, though.

In both Palermo and Rome, she was constantly harassed by Italian men. She couldn’t sit down to have a coffee without some chotch doggedly attempting to join her. She was followed for a block down the street, and solicited by an aging hound dog who was definitely on the wrong side of seventy. These men really wouldn’t take no for an answer.

I got to thinking about why men behave this way, and about this evolutionary psychology book I wrote about (Derek wrote a more thorough review) a while back. There seem to be two possibilities:

  1. The success rate is greater than zero, and the effort involved is worth the occasional success. If they never succeeded, you’d think that they’d eventually give up.
  2. The behaviour has nothing to do with earning female affections, and everything to do with lekking. From Wikipedia: “A lek is a gathering of males, of certain animal species, for the purposes of competitive mating display.”

A premise of that book is that our brains stoppped evolving 10,000 years ago, and that our basic goal in life is simple: reproduction. Presumably the psychological goal of option #2 is to intimidate the other males in the lek, and get to the female first.

But why is this practice particularly common in Italy (I’m sure it’s common in other countries–this is just the worst among those that we’ve visited)? It’s probably cultural.

I wanted to use this photo to illustrate this post, but it was all rights reserved.

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Comments: 38 Responses so far

emanj
January 28th, 2008
3:44 am

I am an italian man (that’s why I write in “bad english”) and here’s what I can say: you’re right.
A lot (not everybody, thank god) of italian men follow the motto “ogni lasciata รจ persa” which roughly translates as “every woman I don’t try to harass is certainly not coming to bed with me, hence I try to harass every woman” .
There are a lot of differences between northern italians and southern ones. Northern ones tend to be colder and a lot less intrusive. Suthern ones tend to be more passionate. Not every north-ling is cold, not every south-ling is passionate but… well… this is what is commonly said.
Personally, I’ve never harassed no one, and none of my friends did (I come from northern Italy). But I know of a lot of others who did.
I’m really sorry about the reputation italians have… I often read bad opinions about us. We even had a prime minister like Berlusconi who greatly increased our bad reputations and… well… bad news: he’s coming back.
Italy has a lot of geographical variety: high mountains, soft hills, foggy plains, seas, rivers, big cities and small medieval ones. People from Italy comes in a similar variety.

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darren
January 28th, 2008
7:56 am

Emanj: Thanks for the insights–very interesting. Your English is way better than my Italian. It’s interesting what you say about regional differences. Julie says that she was barely hassled in places like Venice and Florence, so you’re right about things being worse in the south.

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Andrea >> Start a consulting business
January 28th, 2008
8:41 am

I had similar troubles in Italy. But, in Greece, a man who had to be in his mid 70s took my hand and then suddenly kissed me. I hightailed it.

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Mark
January 28th, 2008
9:09 am

So this is why you don’t want to move to Italy, eh Darren? Are the Maltese men not like that?

emanj, that is very interesting. I wonder how many of those men also call themselves Catholic?

I also find it strange the double standards in the culture to men and women. They are extremely protective of their daughters, but seem to think its okay for their sons to be players.

(This comes from my experience dating an Italian girl with a very traditional family here in Toronto.)

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emanj
January 28th, 2008
9:50 am

Mark, you wrote two interesting things.

1. Catholic people.
Almost everyone here in Italy who says “I’m a catholic” is a catholic in his/her very own way. A lot of people go to church for no catholic reason… just to be there. There are a lot of those so called sunday-catholics…

2. traditional family.
That’s the keyword! “Traditional”. A lot of “traditional” families are very strict and treat women in a different way. They think women are made to be housewives… This is very very sad.

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darren
January 28th, 2008
10:08 am

Mark: There was no such harassment in Malta, none at all, actually. I’m not sure what accounts for that…

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Derek K. Miller
January 28th, 2008
4:35 pm

The double standard is also something that the evolutionary psychology book Darren and I reviewed attempts to explain. It’s actually pretty simple (although I’ll oversimplify): for animals that reproduce as we do, it is evolutionary advantageous for men to sleep around as much as possible, but not so much for women, for whom it can also be reproductively risky.

Recall that the original evolutionary pressures that created those kinds of behaviours don’t make them _right_, or justify them in the modern world. But they explain why those behaviours exist. Why they persist in some cultures and not in others is a different question.

A question I would ask: how do Italian women feel about and react to all this lekking?

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Sylvie
March 1st, 2008
1:15 am

I recently visited Rome, and even though we were in a gay club there every 2 metres i walked, an italian man would hold my face and try to kiss me!
when i explained this to my friend, i was told that they know we are tourists so think we are easy targets for a one night stand.. i hope this isn’t true because i met the most beautiful, unsleazy man there even though we don’t keep in touch…

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Derek K. Miller
March 21st, 2008
10:45 am

If you’re interested, there has been some pushbackabout the evolutionary psychology book that Darren and I reviewed.

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Rosa
July 31st, 2008
8:51 am

I am currently working on a study of Italian men, and have been for the past two years. After interviewing 30 men from all over Italy, (while studying there and visiting family), and keeping a perceptive eye on my surroundings, men like to look at beautiful things, and if a beautiful woman walks down the street, he is going to stare, comment, or whistle. No different than the men in the U.S. If he gets lucky, that’s his business. But, at the same time, most of the Italian men, are all talk. (Ladies and gentlemen, do not forget that some women are this way, and from what I have experienced after traveling to four different countries, they are worse here.)
Emanj: Over the years, the male/female mentality has changed, and though there are some people who believe women are to be made housewives, the majority of “new” Italians do not. Remember, Italy finally got on the bandwagon in the 40s and 50s, therefore, even today they are struggling with identity issues. Now, I am not saying what they believe in is correct, but we need to understand their history.
Sylvie, I am sorry that man “attacked” you in Rome. I have had men offer the one night stand, but never go so far as to touch me. However, your friend is correct, American women are looked at as sleezy, and we can thank our media and cinema for that.

I am going to look for this book!

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jenni
August 12th, 2008
5:35 am

I met a Northern Italian in this May in my travelling in Thailand. Afterall, we email each other almost every day. The content is short but you feel good. He took a three days trip to visit me in Hong Kong during July. I spent all day and night alone with him to do the sightseeing. Overall, he did behave. He gave me a feeling of a reserve and a very quiet Italian. He touches my faces very often and he likes hand in hand with me for shopping. But he never intend to kiss me. Is he a typical Northern Italian? Or he just treat me as a common friends. I am confused.

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Ann Reply:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

I just wanted to write and let you know that I met a Northern Italian man in his mid 30’s over the internet. He did not speak English well. We e-mailed each other everyday for 6 months, then he bought him a cell phone that worked to the U.S. We’ve been talking to each other (everyday to this date) It will almost be 3 yrs in February next year. He came twice to visit me on his vacation. (to Arizona) He recently went back to Limbiate last month. (Limbiate is near Milan) While here, he never tried to touch me or anything like that. He is a very reserved person and friendly. (basically a good person) I am in my mid 40’s and we get along “Great” together. The only time we touched was when I gave him a “hug” at the airport when he was leaving. There are Italian men out there who are good people!

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Rosa
August 19th, 2008
2:55 pm

Hi Jenni,
It really all depends on the man. Most Italian men I have met, are very timid, especially the older ones, i.e. in their 30s.
Last year, there was this man I met, and it took him three weeks before he could even tell me he was interested in me, and that was after I left the southern part of Italy to go and study in Abruzzo. From experience, I find that Italian men are generally a split between Clark Gable and Casanova.
Over the last 30 years, I have noticed that Italian men are not always the best communicators in the world. They tend to let someone in little by little, and that could take years!
Now, don’t get me wrong, there are some who will tell you whatever whenever…It is amazing to see how different everyone is.

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jenni
September 2nd, 2008
2:10 am

Thanks very much for your information, Rosa. Recently, I feel this Nord Italian getting a bit cold to me. As my friends said he has gone to Bangkok to work for two years. He must have a lot of chances to meet lots and lots of women. And I am just of of this guy’s desserts, don’t be silly.

My friends’ advises was if I want a fling that is fine but try not to get it so serious. Afterall, he is a 30 something Italian, majority is a playboy and now he is working in Bangkok while I am in Hong Kong.

I am so upset and feel heartbreak, Rosa.

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Rosa
September 21st, 2008
11:17 am

I am sorry to hear this Jenni. Sometimes it is better to just move on.
How are things now, after almost 20 days?

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Eve
September 21st, 2008
4:00 pm

Hi Darren…
My name is Eva and I’m a 23 mexican girl… the thing is that I’m planning a trip to Italy next summer… I want to visit some famous Italian cities like Rome, Pisa,Parma, Bologna and Venice… or at least that’s my route. So a month ago I thought that I had to start learning some Italian and I joined Chatta.it (a place where u can chat to Italian people)and when I join the chat I said that I was mexican and that I wanted to learn some Italian… to my surprise the men I chatted to asked me whether to take my clothes off in web cam or to have a one night out while my trip to Italy.. I was shocked I just wanted to learn some Italian phrases… so now that I’ve read more about their culture I guess that’s the way they are… pretty sad to found out that they harass women! So I guess I’ll keep on chatting and try to find a girl who might want to teach me some Italian.

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Vic
October 8th, 2008
3:28 pm

This is a good post. It’s a shame that women have to be harassed in this way because it takes away the beauty of Italy. It’s like being descended upon by flies or even beggars. It’s a shame and maybe Italian men will get the message that it’s just not acceptable to bother people like this. If they keep it up maybe all the good looking girls will stop appearing in public. Then it will be a loss for all of us!

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jenni
October 15th, 2008
6:22 am

Thanks for asking Rosa. I trust this Nord Italian is quite busy in work.

A while ago, I was trying to book a ticket to see him. He said he’s sorry this period he is busy in Bangkok. At the end of the email he said Take care and don’t go out with many boy friends. I really can’t catch his heart and his meaning by saying this.

Rosa, do you know?

Best regards from Hong Kong.

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Gennaro Di Lauro
October 18th, 2008
3:25 am

L’Italia e’ un paese come nessun’altro. Il cibo, la musica e il paesaggio piu’ bello del pianeta. Ci puo’ essere qualche mela marcia c’e’ sempre!

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Rosa Reply:
November 19th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

Gennaro,
Si, l’Italia, `e il paese piu bello del mondo…pero, dobbiamo fare attenzione agl’uomini. Questo sito non parla del cibo, musica o il paesaggio, ma, come le donne sono stata tratta dai uomini italiani. Abbiamo le donne chi non hanno mai avuto un problema, pero, ci sono anche le donne chi sono stata tratta come animali.
Hai ragione, L’Italia `e bella, pero, come qui in America, ci sono dei problemi, delle gente che fanno schifo, che non sano come si devono compartare.

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M
November 17th, 2008
4:45 am

I just met an Italian guy. Strangest guy I ever met and so damn persistent. Now I feel better knowing it’s not just me.lol. It gets tiring trying to fend off his sexual inuenndo that he throws at me, which I always somehow manage to get around and steer the conversation to normal talk.lol. And he’s always asking to “go out” and I am like “no!!”. Perhaps I’m too nice person, I’m a naturally talkative and friendly girl with everyone I meet male or female.

He’s unpredictable, a bit odd, charming, yet when his compliments don’t seem to be working on me he gets all pissy.LOL. It’s quite funny, although the first time he got pissy I thought to myself, “WTF?!?!”.

Oh well, if this is how a lot of Italian guys are I know which country I definitely won’t be visiting if I ever visit Europe. Italy is off the list!!

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L Reply:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:25 am

I live in Virginia, and just met an Italian man. He lives with his family, and goes to work every day with his father. He’s not old, and he’s not a kid (he’s 35), and I totally have no problem with people living with their families. But what IS weird is his persistence too. I mean, beyond ‘I like you’. He’s very good-looking, but man, really seems insecure, and gets offended if I’m not agreeing with him when he’s talking to me. VERY pushy. I told him last night I would go out with him later this week, but I’m having second thoughts. The pushy part worries me. He was drinking last night. Maybe he’ll forget he asked.

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Anne
November 24th, 2008
7:47 am

Hi everyone
I am part Italian and have spent a lot of time in the beautiful country of Italy. However, I was harrassed by men from other countries that don’t respect womens privacy and space. Italian men are not immune. Women don’t want this harrasement. Sometimes it’s flattering but after a while it becomes annoying and seems immature. I suggest two simple words to men. Grow up.

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Joe
February 15th, 2009
1:31 pm

This Northern vs. Southern Italian nonsense makes me sick. Rome is not in Northern Italy where you had your problem… Why don’t you just join Stormfront? Berlusconi is no more embarrassing than Merkel, or the retarded Germans, including a pope, who cannot make up their mind about a bishop… or how to import then exterminate immigrants when the economy goes bad. Or the beloved Icelanders who eat puffins and make half-assed art. Or the English who exploit everyone they can, control American thought, and throw up their hands when the uncivilized world they’ve destroyed acts… uncivilized! As a Calabrese-American, I feel like punching this smug asshole. And yes, I am passionate… and you are cold, just like a bug. Perhaps you have evolved that way.

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Meghan
March 10th, 2009
1:42 pm

Wow.
I’ve always wanted to go to Italy so i’ve been doing a little research about it.
A lot came up about Italian men being a bit more ‘friendly’ and upfront with women.
I still want to go-i just dont want extra attention…

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Jeff
May 14th, 2009
8:04 am

This post is ridiculous. Thanks for promoting the negative stereotype. Maybe you should make another post entitled, “English men who live in Canada are stuck up, is it evolution?”

I thought we were a progressive country, you’re just taking us back to the dark ages by promoting crap like this.

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darren Reply:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:26 am

Dude, have you read the comment thread? That’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that many Italian men are overly-aggressive with women. I didn’t say “all Italian men”, I said “so many Italian men”. Cultures have habits and practices, and many individuals express those habits and practices. If many Italian many are sexually aggressive then it’s not a stereotype, it’s a fact.

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Kate Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 11:44 am

Ok. I just have finished spending a year aboard in Europe. I am half Italian (Calabrese). I am also Canadian. I spent half a year in Italy (for school) and another half in Paris (for school). And since anecdotal evidence is so very important to this seemingly “scientific” explaination fo culture, I tell you my story.

The men in France are just as bad as the men in Italy. There are cultural differences yes. But its CULTURAL. Evolution is biological. Its…idiotic to maintain that this theory is even defendable, let alone plausable.

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Jeff
May 15th, 2009
11:40 am

I didn’t realize that your blog is the new scientific method for evaluating Italian men. My mistake!

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darren Reply:
May 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

Maybe you ought to look up the definition of ‘anecdotal’.

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cece
May 16th, 2009
6:41 pm

It’s not just Italy like this, I’m half Jamaican and in Jamaica it’s the same way and I hate it. I want to go to Italy bad but all this sounds crazy but will not stop me..:)

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jamilla
June 13th, 2009
6:04 am

Hello!!
I agree many italian men are like that towards the turist girls..only because they think they will get a gone night stand with her!

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jamilla
June 13th, 2009
6:07 am

It’s the same kind of treatment women gets in arabic countries…Irak, Iran, Syria, Lebanon
It comes from the point of view of women as a
weak , sexual being that exist only to please the men

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sarah
June 26th, 2009
11:10 pm

I’m a 25 year old american woman travelling alone…I had no issues with harrassment in London Berlin Venice or Florence…but frankly Rome was just a nightmare. On a Friday night I got followed for blocks by 2 different men and what I would call “almost followed” by two others. Auugh! It was so bad that I had to scream at one of them in the metro car until he got off at the next stop. The other one I fled with a Taxi and then the Taxi driver tried to pick me up!!??? I do laugh at it now but I was quite angry with the whole shebang.

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ruth england
September 6th, 2009
5:00 am

I met my boyfriend. in sorento Iam 34 he is 36. we now live together in uk.He has been unfaithful to me with a 50 something year old woman.He was seeing her for a while. he thinks he is a sex god and his vanity and sleazyness.is obviously what i am addicted to.I dont know if he has been with other women.but i am feeling insecure

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ruth england
September 6th, 2009
5:21 am

I. met an italian man in the supermarket. he followed me.through the streets.whisteling me .he stuck his hand up my dress .and thought nothing of it. I.had a very passionate affair with him..i became frightened of him after.his violent lovemaking..i dont know how any woman could cope with him.shes quite welcome to him.

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Kate
September 13th, 2009
11:50 am

I am sorry that so many of the readers have stories about Italian men. Believe me, French and Spanish men are just as bad.

To maintain this type of stereotype is unacceptable. Its unwarrented. Its also especially insulting when immediately after calssifying all Italian men this way there was someone to automatically claim that only Southerners are like this. There is no great divide between the North and South - the only divide is the ones the North made for themselves.

This blog is insulting.

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Claudia
November 1st, 2009
5:25 pm

Hi everyone!

I’m a 28 year old Portuguese and I just wanted to say that I have at least 5 male friends from Southern Italy. They couldn’t be more different from each other, but when I met them for the first time, NONE of them was disrespectful in any way. To this day, none of them have had an attitude that made me think they’re weren’t good people. Actually, they are quite timid and sweet, but all of them have the “flirty feature”, they just can’t help it! I think it’s a matter of luck, as many people have written here, there are bad guys everywhere, even in Portugal!

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